Quote from Ladyholder McCaffrey on December 24, 2017, 11:37 pm

Okay, I think I can answer some of these questions…

When I got out of the US Navy I was an E5, which means I was an NCO, or non-commissioned officer. The Air Force equivalent in rank is Staff Sergeant. Check out this chart for the equivalencies. Now, let’s get to the explanation:

Enlisted Personnel
Pay Grade	Army and Marine Corps		Navy and Coast Guard1		Air Force
E-1	Private		Seaman Recruit		Airman Basic
E-2		Army: Private (PV2) Marines:Private First Class (PFC)		Seaman Apprentice (SA)		Airman (Amn)
E-3		Army: Private First Class (PFC)Marines:Lance Corporal (LCpl)		Seaman (SN)		Airman First Class (A1C)
E-4		Army:  Specialist (SPC)3Corporal (CPL) Marines: Corporal (Cpl)		Petty Officer, Third Class (PO3)		Senior Airman (SrA)
E-5		Sergeant Army:  (SGT) Marines:  (Sgt)		Petty Officer, Second Class (PO2)		Staff Sergeant (SSgt)
E-6		Staff Sergeant Army: (SSG) Marines: (SSgt)		Petty Officer, First Class (PO1)		Technical Sergeant (TSgt)
E-7		Army: Sergeant First Class (SFC)Marines:Gunnery Sergeant (GySgt)		Chief Petty Officer (CPO)4		Master Sergeant (MSgt)First Sergeant (––)
E-8		Master Sergeant Army: (MSG) Marines: (MSgt)First Sergeant Army: (1SG) Marines: (––)		Senior Chief Petty Officer (SCPO)		Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt)First Sergeant (––)
E-9		Army: Sergeant Major (SGM)Command Sergeant Major (CSM) Marines: Sergeant Major (SgtMaj) Master Gunnery Sergeant (MGySgt)		Master Chief Petty Officer (MCPO)5Fleet/Command Master Chief Petty Officer (––)		Chief Master Sergeant (CMSgt)First Sergeant (––) Command Chief Master Sergeant (––)
Special Grades6
E-9		Sergeant Major of the Army (SMA)Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps (SgtMajMC)		Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (MCPON)Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard (MCPOCG)		Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force (CMSAF)
TOTAL ENLISTED
Warrant Officers
W-1		Warrant Officer 1 Army: (WO1) Marines: (WO)	DISCONTINUED 1975		NO WARRANT
W-2		Chief Warrant Officer 2 Army: (CW2) Marines: (CWO2)		Chief Warrant Officer 2 (CWO2)	NO WARRANT
W-3		Chief Warrant Officer 3 Army: (CW3) Marines: (CWO3)		Chief Warrant Officer 3 (CWO3)	NO WARRANT
W-4		Chief Warrant Officer 4 Army: (CW4) Marines: (CWO4)		Chief Warrant Officer 4 (CWO4)	NO WARRANT
W-5		Chief Warrant Officer 5 Army: (CW5) Marines: (CWO5)		Chief Warrant Officer 5 (CWO5)7	NO WARRANT
Total Warrant Officers
Commissioned Officers
Cadets/Midshipmen8
O-1		Second Lieutenant Army: (2LT) Marines:(2ndLt)		Ensign (ENS)		Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)
O-2		First Lieutenant Army: (1LT) Marines:1stLt		Lieutenant Junior Grade (LTJG)		First Lieutenant 1st Lt
O-3		Captain Army: (CPT) Marines: Capt		Lieutenant (LT)		Captain (Capt)
O-4		Major Army: (MAJ) Marines: Maj		Lieutenant Commander (LCDR)		Major (Maj)
O-5		Lieutenant Colonel Army: (LTC) Marines: (LtCol)		Commander (CDR)		Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
O-6		Colonel Army: (COL) Marines: (Col)		Captain (CAPT)		Colonel (Col)
O-7		Brigadier General Army: (BG) Marines: (BGen)		Rear Admiral Lower Half (RDML)		Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
O-8		Major General Army: (MG) Marines: (MajGen)		Rear Admiral (RADM)		Major General (Maj Gen)
O-9		Lieutenant General Army: (LTG) Marines: (LtGen)		Vice Admiral (VADM)		Lieutenant General (Lt Gen)
O-10		Chief of Staff of the Army Commandant of the Marine Corps General Army: (GEN) Marines: (Gen)		Chief of Naval Operations Commandant of the Coast Guard Admiral (ADM)		Chief of Staff of the Air Force General (Gen)
Special Grades9
5 Stars		General of the Army		Fleet Admiral		General of the Air Force
TOTAL COMMISSIONED OFFICERS
TOTAL OFFICERS
TOTAL PERSONNEL

1. How can a NCO have authority over an officer?

It works like this… Technically, an O1 (or Second Lt) outranks the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force. In reality? A brand NEW officer is not going to get away with telling someone with 20+ years in the military what to do. While they might not get in trouble right then & there, they will be having one of those ‘one sided conversations’ with a MUCH higher ranked officer about why they felt the need to do that. It also will get noted by the various gossip mills & that O-1 will live to regret their chuptzah.

NCO’s are… Let’s just say that they are the spine of the military. Without them, things fall apart damn quick. And a Gunny or a Master Sgt is normally there to advise, to subtly direct or even disagree with an officer. Going against them is not too smart. It causes all sorts of problems with the rest of the body

How would this work on Atlantis?

Well. Uhm… It’s kinda like this: Sheppard is the CO and he has Lorne as his 2IC, some other officers to fill out the ranks and then somewhere in there would be the ranking NCO for the base. That would be the person the CO (Sheppard) would consult to get an idea of what is going on with the rank & file. They would also be the interface between the officer corps & the enlisted. They can deal out punishments, can assign work details, can put people on or off assignments and even move people around departments. Basically, they are the left hand of the CO.

 

2. Warrant officers…

Think of Warrant Officers as their own breed. They started out as Sergeant Pilots in WWII. Someone decided that an NCO couldn’t fly the plane w/o the officer rank that goes with it. They get issued a Warrant just like an Officer gets a commission. And they all start out as an enlisted member, E6 or above.

 

Added to that, they also are staying in their jobs. As my husband told me, they are ‘Neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat’. A Warrant is never someone who comes into the military as a Warrant. It’s a rank you earn.

 

3. Stackhouse and his team… How would Cadman have worked?

You don’t ask the easy questions, do you?

 

Right. Cadman would be considered a specialist given her stated job. She’s EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal), so I’m going to say that she’s not on any one team specifically. I’m sure that when she’s on Stackhouse’s team, it’s a temporary thing that lasts a mission or so. Given that, the team itself is going to be Stackhouse’s to order around and all. Cadman may give orders, but they are for the things in her area. Day to day operations of the team would fall under the normal commander.

 

Also the SG teams, be they on Atlantis or the SGC, seem to have scientists on them. That Japanese asset you mention? I’m pretty sure they’re a scientist. Or you can just decide they are and call it done.

 

4. Where do I belong?

 

Right. Well, if I was doing this (which I do when I write it) I would look at all the various specialties for the scientists and figure out what specialty would work with what team. As in… An anthropologist/archeologist/linguist with experience in multiple cultures would be great on a first contact team. An astrophysicist/engineer/Ancient tech expert would be useful for a team that’s looking for Ancient tech in a new galaxy. But neither team would do good with an entomologist like Gil Grissom. Well, unless they were on a planet with giant bugs. Match your scientists to what the teams will be doing. Some might be assigned to one team only, others might rotate between teams and yet other teams might have a roster of scientists depending on what they are doing. It’s all how you want to deal with the issue.

 

So. That covers what you might look for in scientists. For the military from other countries? Well, in that case things just got a LOT simpler. Because they all have a MOS (military occupational specialty code) and you slot people into place using that. Like… I might need a sniper and a spotter on AG3. So, if I didn’t have one in the available Marines or in Air Force, I would look to the international folks. And then you slot them in. Might be for a mission or might be a permanent change, but you look at what job they do & then slot them in.

 

Seriously, this is a dance that isn’t really covered in any of the shows, but it would take a LOT of time, knowing your people and a willingness to change things up to get the right balance. These guys are likely going to be in each other’s pockets for months, if not years. Once you get the balance right, you don’t fuck with it. Unlike the run of the mill military, the SGC & Atlantis aren’t going to have a ready supply of replacements, so every placement decision has to be made in that light.

 

5. Branches…

 

I would love to say that every team is a pure team. You know, Marines here, Navy there, Air Force over there and we have the Army guys yonder… No can do. You blend by MOS and then personality. Will there be teams that are all one service? Sure. I’m sure that if the SGC managed to get a SEAL team, they would keep those guys together, come hell or high water. Why? Because they are trained together and it’s only logical.

 

Now, in RL, are there mixed service teams? Yes. A good RL example is Navy Corpsmen and women are assigned to Marine units as their medical parties. It works because they all train together. Is it weird at the start for the Navy person assigned to a Marine unit? I’m sure. As much as the Marines are a part of the Dept of the Navy, we have very different institutional cultures. But the Navy has been hosting the Marines since we started, so we can adapt. So can they.

 

6. Promotions!

 

Right, this one is a bit harder… Uhm… Let’s use a character of mine. Chief Mess Specialist Cooper is in the US Navy, has been in for 10+ years, with the SGC for just over 5 and is a fully train chef. Her training followed the standard steps of Boot Camp, ‘A’ school where she learned the basics of being a Mess Specialist and the secondary schools where she got more in-depth when she excelled at the basics. She became a chef well before she earned her rank as an E7. She got it because she excelled at her job, she went after every opportunity that presented itself to her to excel and she shined.

 

What your rank is can have an impact on what you are put in charge of, but being an E1 and a trained chef isn’t an impossibility. The person in question might have come into the military with those skills after all. I know a guy who was an E7, just like my fictional Cooper and he would be what I would call a line cook. He wasn’t, as far as I knew a chef. But he ran the main mess for my ship and did it well. The food was decent, in good quality and quantity. Plus he had no problems with letting me cook while I was assigned to him. And I wasn’t one of his MS’s. Good times.

 

Now, would an E1 be in charge of a kitchen? No. Because there are those who are of a higher rank than them in the military & it’s their kitchen. But that E1 who’s a chef? Might get told to prepare a meal for the CO. Or conversely, the main dish for the whole ship. It all depends.

Quote from Deleted user on December 25, 2017, 2:00 am

Thank you! This is very helpful, even if it actually means things are more complicated than I was thinking. Since I'm only writing in the Atlantis universe and not the real world, I'm hoping that will simplify matters somewhat.

1. Age: I found online where it gives the absolute minimum time in service a person has to have before they can be promoted, but are there "average" ages? I realize it must depend on skill and personal drive, (or on the opposite end, the tendency to mouth off, screw off, and get written up), but is there a general age group? The older I get, the more "too young" everyone on Atlantis looks, but that's probably just my perception problem.

1b. The Expedition to Atlantis was a volunteer (except for John who kind of got volun-told) mission at first, but logically, would there have been a cut-off rank for people? Or an age? That question probably sounds stupid since we routinely send kids overseas to fight in wars before they can legally drink, but my youngest character enlisted out of high school and is a LCpl. so he has close to 2 years time in service. With as top secret as the SGC/SGA is, would that be logical, or should he be older/could he be younger? Of course, I could be reading the entire TIS & TIG thing wrong.

2. From what you're saying, MOS matters as much or even more than rank in some cases. I kind of panicked a little before I realized many of the hundreds of MOS aren't going to be applicable. I still have questions, of course, if you'd continue to indulge me.

Take Sheppard. He's obviously the ranking officer for his team, but he was a pilot first, so he probably had a MOS of Fighter Pilot, but would they have added something like Experimental Test Pilot because he flies the puddlejumpers and a giant city-ship? He'd also have one of the Air Force Operations Staff Officer MOS because he's supposed to run the military side of the city?

Does a person have a limit on the number of MOS they can have? I assume the military has to pay for whatever the person officially has typed wherever it gets typed in their data sheet, so if you speak 15 different languages that all have their own code, do you have to pick your top five or something? We all know there was no way the stingy federal government was paying for all 30 or however many of Daniel's languages.

How about Bates as Chief of Security? Was he likely some kind of MP or security specialist? Pretending they were Marines, Teyla would probably fit as a martial arts instructor, Ronon as a combat instructor or weapons and tactics? It doesn't seem like a person could really be a one-trick pony on Atlantis. If somebody got injured but it wasn't enough to get sent back to Earth, could they be reassigned to another task they hadn't trained for but had aptitude for? Like somebody cracked a rib, so they're pulled from an Infantry position to do admin work until they're cleared to return to previous duty. Or is that completely ridiculous?

3. Assignments (still, sorry) Would Sheppard and Bates (as highest officer and highest NCO) be in charge of assigning teams? If Carter is in charge, as a full Colonel, what impact would that make to the way things were done vs Weir and Woolsey? It seemed like Weir & Woolsey were basically there for civilians and knew less than I do about the military. (A seriously sad thing to admit. My ancestors, even the ones not yet dead, are rolling in their graves so hard you shouldn't be surprised if you hear about an earthquake in the Upper Midwest or lower Manitoba soon.)

4. Is punitive assignment a reality? I grew up on stories about my father getting caught pranking someone and then being stuck pealing potatoes/chopping onions/digging a trench/etc. I never knew if he was just talking crap. In that same line, what would it take to be demoted?

5. What does it mean when you say you weren't one of the E7' line cook's MS's? You weren't one of his regular people or something?

Quote from Ladyholder McCaffrey on January 31, 2018, 1:09 am

You are welcome!

 

I’m sorry about not getting back to you quickly, but RL is a bitch. Anyway!

 

(1) The absolute youngest you can enter the US military is pretty much 17 and that’s with parental approval. Seriously. But for ease of use, say everyone enters at 18 & be done with that.

From there, you can have people who manage to get some breaks. When I went into the US Navy, I entered as an E2 due to college classes. You could also get a rank bump due to helping others enlist. While in Basic, I managed to get an additional bump up in rank due to standing out and winning an award. So basically I walked out of Basic Training 2 steps ahead of most of my peers. I was 22, but still, it’s possible to do for an 18-year-old.  And that’s about 2 years or so of advancement in about 4 months.

Average ages vary. I’ve seen E-6’s who were in their 30’s & others who were late 20’s. It depends on what rank they entered the military with, how hard they busted their asses at test time & did they do anything extra to add to their advantages? Keeping your nose clean helps too. Being a fuck-up will not get you promoted.

[a] I would say that the Powers That Be might have called their cut off age around 40 or so. While there are still people going strong at 40+, you want young, healthy people to start with. As for a Lance Corporal having a Top Secret clearance high enough to be in the SGC? I was an E3 & had one for my ship & I was handling some seriously important shit. So were the rest of the people I was with. It’s all possible.

 

(2) MOS are the job you enter with. And you might want to go out for more training at a related job, so your MOS might get added to. Sheppard may have come in to fly helicopters, but get tapped to fly Harriers and maybe some other experimental craft. His jacket will be PILOT. But with some added goodies. I wasn’t in Admin, so I am no expert on all the codes. Author hand-wave of destiny for the win here.

I’m pretty sure that Sheppard has some leadership courses under his belt. To get to the rank he had when the series started, he had to have had at least a few. Majors are too useful as middle management to allow to be fallow ground. So, he knows how to run Atlantis, he’s just putting up a lazy front. Because he doesn’t want *more* work after all!

Bates? He may have been an MP. I mean, for the ones I knew? Most of them started out life in a rate other than Military Police but chose that as they spent more time in the Navy. They go training, they got experience and they shifted rates & their listed MOS likely changed too. So, it’s all possible that Bates started as Marine Infantry, developed an interest in police work & went MP.

Teyla & Ronon are on the books as Civilian Contractors, I’m sure. They don’t have a rank on Atlantis, at least formally. I’m pretty sure that if Ronon told a Marine to do something, they would do it & not fuss to hard. The military is pragmatic that way. As for the folks who get injured? Yes, those lucky bastards get to help with the never-ending paper chase that is the military. In-between physical therapy and training and inventory and more training and did I mention training?

 

(3) I’m sure Sheppard, Lorne and the ranking NCO (non-commissioned officer) on the infantry side, all got together and worked out the Teams. Weir and Woolsey would have had nothing to do with the set-up of the teams. Would McKay? Yes, if they are looking for scientists, but no for how the military assets are distributed. Would Carter have any say in the Teams when she was in charge? Nope.

Every one of the leaders of Atlantis were there to keep an eye on the big picture, make sure to decide major policy and be an interface between Earth & Pegasus. They were not there to manage the military or the sciences either. Basically, they were the pretty figurehead with limited power.

 

(4)Punitive assignments? Uhm… Yes and no. Yes, you can get stuck with some seriously shit jobs, but for me, I never really saw it as a thing.

Would it be useful on Atlantis? Yes. There are only so many places you can stick guys to give them punishment and with a population that small, you don’t want to lock someone up because then you need a minimum of three people to guard them. A total waste of manpower. So, having them clean all the public areas, peel potatoes, help the Athosians plant or whatever dirty, nasty job is available would be appropriate.

 

(5) Okay, so I served on board a ship when I first entered the Navy. I was an E-3 and given that I was one of lowest of the low, I had to do a 6-month rotation on the mess decks, helping out. There were some people who did table bussing and general clean-up of the dining areas and others who helped out the cooks. The ones helping the cooks were normally scrubbing pots, pans and all kinds of other shit.

That last was my job to start. But I HATE dishes. Which now that I think about it, I got from that 6 month period in my life. At any rate. I already knew how to cook and was and am a damn decent one. I had absolutely no problem showing the Mess Specialist in charge that I could cook. He, in turn, needed someone who could stand in and get shit done when things changed on him. I did everything from line cook slinging eggs to cooking the soups for lunch/dinner to later prepping out ALL the salads for meals. We had 1000+ people on board too.

I am still chuffed at how the MS in charge of my CO’s private mess would come down to check out what I had made for a salad and grab some for my Captain. To this day, it makes me happy to know I was cooking for him. I got several compliments from him too.

At the end of my 6 months, I went back to my regular duty station and the job I had actually trained for and that was that.

Quote from Deleted user on January 31, 2018, 7:25 pm

Thank you for getting back to me! I know RL can be a total kick in the pants, and not the motivational kind.

I especially appreciate your replies because the way you write makes the military sound way more interesting than the Q&A boards I've been haunting. It's kind of like learning about how a beehive or anthill works. (Yeah, I'm a total nerd like that and watch documentaries on how ants communicate with pheromones.)

Now I'm curious as to how they store food for that many people on a ship. I suppose gigantic walk-in freezers and refrigerators. They must have something pretty good if you were prepping salads a lot. Is the - er - grocery store area, for lack of a better term restricted to certain people in the kitchens? I realize it's not like home where you can just wander into the kitchen if you get the munchies at midnight, but say you're on dish duty (I completely commiserate with your hatred of dishes!) but you are found in the fridge or freezer. Is it a big deal, or you just have to explain so-and-so sent you for more whatevers?

Who decides what kind of meals are going to be served? Is there a nutritionist specifically, or is that something that gets trained at the same time as all the other kitchen processes?

Quote from Ladyholder McCaffrey on February 11, 2018, 10:49 pm

You’re welcome!

 

Ah, food. The bane of existence & the constant necessity for life. Well, other than coffee at least.

How is food stored?

My ship stayed out to sea for a max of 14 days. We weren’t expected to stay out to sea for months on end, so we had a lot of fresh fruits and vegetables. Refrigerators and freezers took care of most things and canned goods took care of the rest.

For those ships that were out longer? The series is; fresh, frozen, canned, none. Once something is gone, unless you get resupplied with that item, it’s gone.

Now, Hubby was on a ship that stayed out a lot longer than I ever did. He states that they did what was called ‘UNREP’, which means underway resupply: https://youtu.be/MvnTrA8AbtA . As you can see, they are sending fuel over on those hoses, but food for the crew also comes across.

If you are supposed to be in the mess area can you get in the fridge? I did, but then, I was pushy and did more than I should have been allowed to. The Mess Specialists (MS) have menu’s that they use, with supply lists detailed therein and food is brought up to fit the daily menu. You only get into the fridge or freezer for what you need, not because you want something out of it. Not a kosher thing.

Also, there is the fridge you work out of on the same level as the mess (on my ship) and then there were the big ones further below decks. Same with the freezers. Dry storage was limited on the mess deck and we brought up stuff from down below a lot. Like daily. Sometimes more depending on what was running low.

Dishes are put together by someone higher up the chain thank the people aboard the ships. Menus are made between the supply officers and the MS’s to make sure things aren’t repeated ad nauseam. Supplies are ordered based off the menus and waste is minimized.

Did everything get eaten? No. Did the MS in charge of the mess pay attention to what got finished? Yes. A lot. That’s one reason I made a lot of salads. What I made got eaten & there was little to no waste. This was important since waste equaled money lost.

Could people be trained to be a nutritionist? Sure. I’m sure the Navy has a number of them. They just don’t work on board ship that I know of. The nutritional info of the meals is already listed with the recipes.

The MS’s I worked with were a combination of short order cooks and complete noobs who should not have been allowed into a kitchen until they stopped having tantrums. I am a home cook. Meaning that I can cook for my family & can scale p dishes, but I am very likely to scale up wrong. The kids I was working with? They had everything already spelled out for them & only had to follow directions. Sometimes that was too much for them. Food still came out okay, but that was because the MS1 (Mess Specialist, First Class) ran a tight ship.

Anyway. Food is a big deal. Having plenty of it, as fresh as can be made, as tasty as can be made is something to look forward to on the days when shit just doesn’t go right. If the cooks are good they are some of the most popular people on the ship. You don’t want to have substandard food if you can help it.